this forum has become a joke

shadowshadow
edited April 2015 in Off-topic Discussion
Okay look, I understand the policy of not wanting to delete any topics because of censorship but if that was the case you would never delete any topic ever, including the spam. There was once a time where this forum was useful for discussing PIA and having on topic discussions but the last few months with just a few members have completely turned this place into a joke and PIA need to realise that in the long run this will hurt them more than help. If you feel that strongly about not wanting to delete topics then fair enough, but you try comparing this forum to AirVPN and telling me this place is better. I've been a fan of PIA for years, however, their attitude to this forum tells me they don't care for implementing a standard and just accept whatever gets posted here.

Oh well, it was a fun 2 years...
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Comments

  • VPNVPN
    @shadow, I feel the same way as you. That lack of content curation on this forum speaks badly for PIA.

    So far it looks as if the idiots mainly stay in their own threads. If you occasionally need help, I'm sure the people that take things seriously around here will be there for you.

    Still, if PIA wants the forum to be like it is now, it won't take long until it pushes away the sane and draws more of the weird. It sounds like you have already found another place. Maybe I'll come by there in the future :)

    I still value PIA as a VPN provider, I think they are doing a good job with that.
  • NameUnavailableNameUnavailable
    They could always increase the price so someone can babysit the forums 24 hours day.
  • VPNVPN
    They could try to find responsible community moderators who don't cost money...
  • OmniNegroOmniNegro
    They could try to find responsible community moderators who don't cost money...
    If they did, they would have to hide the identity of the people, lest the trolls berate them into something stupid like bashing a competitor for fun.
  • cosmoxlcosmoxl
    totally agree with the OP @shadow and @VPN.  earlier today I actually deleted my bookmark for this forum and told myself I wouldn't come back.  but, I figured it's better I keep an eye on things here.

    my opinion is that chaos and anarchy are not freedom.  there is a lot of nonsense taking place here that is just as much spam as the black magic posts.

    I think PIA are making a big mistake by supporting junk posts in the name of freedom.
  • rainmakerrawrainmakerraw
    Everyone here knows I already hold these sentiments, as I migrated away to AirVPN primarily due to various PIA failings and their shocking treatment of customers. I do still hold an account, and as most of you in here know I moved away from this forum for a while when certain members took over the asylum. 

    I did come back because I missed you decent folks, but it's getting to the point of not being worthwhile any more. The real users are being lost, support threads are turning into witch-hunts and PIA just sit watching the digits rise in the bank. It's a sad thing.
  • catcher749catcher749
    Everyone here knows I already hold these sentiments, as I migrated away to AirVPN primarily due to various PIA failings and their shocking treatment of customers. I do still hold an account, and as most of you in here know I moved away from this forum for a while when certain members took over the asylum. 

    I did come back because I missed you decent folks, but it's getting to the point of not being worthwhile any more. The real users are being lost, support threads are turning into witch-hunts and PIA just sit watching the digits rise in the bank. It's a sad thing.
    Air, lol. Shows your intelligence level.
  • OmniNegroOmniNegro
    Actually the only two things I have against Air are the price and the Italian location. (Not that people do not complain about American locations as if it meant something.)

    I particularly like the Open Source client for Air. That and the server statistics that allow you to really dig into details and pick the perfect server are quite appealing.
  • catcher749catcher749
    But how do you feel about their logging? Is it worth it to pay $80 a year to get logged?
  • cosmoxlcosmoxl
    @catcher749, they don't log for pity's sake.

    https://www.privacytools.io/#vpn

    even that link that YOU posted in the other thread says so.
  • catcher749catcher749
    Their privacy policy makes it pretty clear they log IP addresses for an undisclosed period of time, but keep living in denial I suppose.

    Here's a better link:
    http://www.deepdotweb.com/2014/07/08/is-your-vpn-legit-or-shit/
  • catcher749catcher749
    Omni would pay an overpriced $80 a year to have your IP address logged by some fools out in Italy?
  • cosmoxlcosmoxl
    Their privacy policy makes it pretty clear they log IP addresses for an undisclosed period of time, but keep living in denial I suppose.

    Here's a better link:
    http://www.deepdotweb.com/2014/07/08/is-your-vpn-legit-or-shit/
    if you look through all the comments you'll see that there is plenty of talk about Air.



    As previous commenters have pointed out in regards to the AirVPN
    service provider, they do not store logs of any kind and as anyone with
    any technical knowledge should know the IP of the connecting computer is
    required to enable access to those services provided. AirVPN has stated
    throughout their forums that the connection information is purged once
    the client disconnects.

    I have cited several forum links below that the AirVPN staff have
    taken part in to address these issues directly, and even offer tips for
    creating a ‘partition of trust’ between the company and the user.

    https://airvpn.org/topic/9717-logging-on-vpn-servers/?hl=logs

    https://airvpn.org/topic/10171-logs-get-deleted-after-disconnect-so-better-to-do-regular/?hl=logs

    https://airvpn.org/topic/54-using-airvpn-over-tor/#entry1745

    I hope this helps to clear up any confusion as this can be misleading
    to prospective readers and cause a loss of business for AirVPN.




    Maybe that'll help you.
  • OmniNegroOmniNegro
    Omni would pay an overpriced $80 a year to have your IP address logged by some fools out in Italy?
    I would not pay $80 a year period. End of discussion.
  • cosmoxlcosmoxl
    Omni would pay an overpriced $80 a year to have your IP address logged by some fools out in Italy?
    I would not pay $80 a year period. End of discussion.
    54 Euros is more like $58 these days
  • catcher749catcher749
    So you're quoting paid Air shills in the comment section? Lol.

    I on the other hand, am direct quoting from their privacy policy.

    “Air servers and software procedures acquire only personal data which
    are strictly necessary for the technical functioning of the service,
    for example IP address. These data are not collected to identify,
    through elaboration or any other technique, users’ personal identities.
    These data are not transmitted to third parties. “

    Nowhere does AirVPN say how the IP address is stored and if it is anonymised.


    “Data transmission is performed between Air servers network
    exclusively in order to erogate efficiently the AirVPN service. Data are
    deleted as soon as they are no more necessary for such purposes.”

    “Data are deleted as soon as they are no more necessary for such
    purposes” is far too vague to be taken seriously and there is no mention
    of data retention periods anywhere in the privacy policy. None at all? Someone who
    has little knowledge of how VPNs work also has no idea how long data is
    typically stored for troubleshooting. I'd be willing to bet Air has an ambiguous definition of "troubleshooting."

  • catcher749catcher749
    Omni would pay an overpriced $80 a year to have your IP address logged by some fools out in Italy?
    I would not pay $80 a year period. End of discussion.
    Can't argue that.
  • rainmakerrawrainmakerraw
    edited April 2015
    AirVPN don't log and have no need to, as the EU directives are very clear and very strong. Transit providers like VPNs are exempt and Air's founders include privacy lawyers who set up the VPN in Italy for that very reason. Any Italian law is over-ridden by EU law, and Air log absolutely nothing unless you ask them to. 

    The only options for logging are the anonymous statistics (session traffic and speeds etc) which can be turned on or off at the users' discretion. I have much more confidence in EU privacy laws than the US Protect America Act, Patriot Act and NSA security letters. 

    To quote from Air's privacy policy:

    Although the Air servers may be located in various European Union countries, all those servers and all data collected by those servers are subject to this "AirVPN Privacy Notice and Terms" and are compliant to the standards and requirements set by Directives 95/46/EC ("Data Protection"), 2002/58/EC ("privacy on electronic communications") and the best practices recommended by the EU Art. 29 Working Party and the EDPS (European Data Protection Supervisor).

    Servers located outside the European Union will treat users data with the same (or higher) level of privacy and data protection, never with a lower level of privacy and data protection. AirVPN will not use or locate servers in countries which have laws which would force Air to violate the aforementioned European Union directives. Anyway, in case of jurisdictional conflicts, Air will not recognize extra-UE competence and will respond only to European Union laws.

    Air servers and software procedures acquire only personal data which are strictly necessary for the technical functioning of the service, for example IP address. These data are not collected to identify, through elaboration or any other technique, users' personal identities. These data are not transmitted to third parties. 

    Pressure from private actors to obtain any data (including but not limited to IP address of users) is an illegal act and Air, in order to protect its business and the users' privacy, reserves the right to inform the competent authorities and prosecute the private entities responsible for such illegal acts.

    What about that is hard to fathom? Funny the trolls question users' intelligence but would rather partake of a US kool aid susceptible to NSA security letters and pedalling closed source software while poking ad hominem jibes at strong EU privacy laws. 

    I'm luckily not poor so the price of AirVPN is irrelevant. They're hardly expensive lol. I'd pay treble that just to be assured the service was run properly and with real privacy with no threat of security letters from the NSA.

    Let's count up: 

    Run by privacy lawyers? PIA has Ricky, but Air was founded by internationally renowned privacy lawyers - check. Open source client? PIA no chance, Air check. Tech support who are technically competent, don't read from scripts and who are also directly responsible for the netadmin on the vpn? PIA no, AirVPN check. Having 4096 bit RSA key size, AES-256-CBC data channel and HMAC SHA1 control channel with perfect forward secrecy and 60 minute re-keying (user adjustable) by default? PIA, not unless you use their closed source client, AirVPN yes by default even with .ovpn files. 

    The list goes on. Ask PIA a question about routing on your Debian or FreeBSD box because their ovpn file has invalid parameters. You'll get told (eventually) that they only support Windows, Mac (both American OSs with built in backdoors) and Ubuntu. Then they'll send you to the forums to ask other paying customers to support you for free while they rake in $1.5 million a year promising to fix their client 'asap' year after year. AirVPN will write a config script for you on the spot and the developers will release new software that afternoon to fix it, because it's all open source. 

    Whether people use PIA, Air, or anyone else: Sane users don't care as long as the privacy and support is there. You can sit on your PC all day trolling sane human beings about their choices, but it's a very deluded and arrogant stance to take. Clean your own house before you throw stones in a glass one. This ongoing need to have a battle against a non-existent enemy, trolling other VPN companies etc is sad and fruitless. Nobody cares but you and one or two of the other forum trolls.You should direct your energy against the likes of the NSA, CIA, GCHQ, FSB et al if you really care about privacy. 

    I have a subscription to PIA, AirVPN, and others and use them according to need. When I need to be private I use Air's open source client to connect to VPN over SSH through TOR. Try that with PIA... LOL Ironically PIA just opened servers in Russia, where the FSB mandates by law that ALL traffic and data is logged at backbone/datacentre level. So you can guarantee that anything you put through PIA's Russian node is logged at government level, as they wouldn't legally be allowed to operate there otherwise. No thanks.

    Have a good day.
  • catcher749catcher749
    Compare all the nonsense this retard above me just posted to PIA's stance on logging:


    PrivateInternetAccess.com does not collect or log any traffic or use of its Virtual Private Network ("VPN") or Proxy.


    I'd say the choice is pretty clear. Have a good day.
  • cosmoxlcosmoxl
    namecalling is the bastion of the unintelligent.

    @rainmakerraw wrote an intelligent reply which is, unfortunately for his/her wasted time, ignored.
  • cosmoxlcosmoxl
    Compare all the nonsense this retard above me just posted to PIA's stance on logging:


    PrivateInternetAccess.com does not collect or log any traffic or use of its Virtual Private Network ("VPN") or Proxy.


    I'd say the choice is pretty clear. Have a good day.
    the above post is in reply to this
  • rainmakerrawrainmakerraw
    Compare all the nonsense this retard above me just posted to PIA's stance on logging:


    PrivateInternetAccess.com does not collect or log any traffic or use of its Virtual Private Network ("VPN") or Proxy.


    I'd say the choice is pretty clear. Have a good day.
    Yeah keep it nice and simple for a dumbed down population. Amusing that you insult my intelligence but your petty little insults are the best discussion you can muster. Ironically people read things like this and do choose. Whose side appears rational and who simply calls names like a playground inhabitant?

    Have you ever read the listed directives? They're around 500 pages each but very enlightening. Your little one liner from PIA is cute and all, but you do realise that if and/or when they received their NSA security letter they had to keep that line unchanged while whoring out your data to Uncle Sam? Enjoy being watched while you continue having these amusing little outbursts.

    Funny that you were one of the users I helped way back when I joined this forum. Sad times. I believe the spooks like to call it divide and conquer. Hook, line and sinker my friend.
  • catcher749catcher749
    AirVPN don't log and have no need to, as the EU directives are very clear and very strong. Transit providers like VPNs are exempt and Air's founders include privacy lawyers who set up the VPN in Italy for that very reason. Any Italian law is over-ridden by EU law, and Air log absolutely nothing unless you ask them to. 

    The only options for logging are the anonymous statistics (session traffic and speeds etc) which can be turned on or off at the users' discretion. I have much more confidence in EU privacy laws than the US Protect America Act, Patriot Act and NSA security letters. 
    Direct quote from Air rep:
    "In the EU we have servers in countries where Data Retention Directive
    (2006/24/EC) implementation has been declared unconstitutional
    (Romania, Germany) or where its scope does not cover our service (any
    other Member State). We fully comply to the EU legal framework.

    USA situation (under this point of view) is even better: in the USA
    currently there's no mandatory data retention at all, not even for
    domestic ISPs.

    https://airvpn.org/topic/9358-eu-and-data-retention-laws-with-eu-based-vpn/

    Omni, this fool doesn't even know the stance of his own VPN. Do you think he is auditioning for a stand up career or does he actually think he is fooling anyone? I suspect a serious mental deficiency. Would you pay $80 to watch this retard contradict their own policies? Would you mind trusting these "Italian hacktivists" with your data for $80 a year? In Italy, home to some of the most strongly enforced copyright enforcement laws in the world where P2P sites are outright blocked?

  • OmniNegroOmniNegro
    Right now the € 54 equals less than $60 USD.

    And I have made my position very clear. Please do not try to robert_lazar me into the conversation. You are better than this.
  • rainmakerrawrainmakerraw
    The US have no mandatory data retention law, but they do have NSA security letters. Can you serve an NSA security letter on a USA based company like PIA? Yes. Can the NSA serve a security letter on a European company? No. 

    So Air can take advantage of the USA's no-logging stance at server level, while not being subject to its "We'll give you a security letter and make you log secretly anyway" approach, which PIA is subject to as an American based company.

    In your previous reply you call me a fool and call in other forum members like a jubilant hyena delirious on crack, but seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that there is only one Directive in the EU. Directives number in the millions, and the one you quoted Air discussing is but one, and not what I was referring to at all. 

    Also amusing to see you quote a one liner from PIA stating that they don't log, then gloating about AirVPN elaborating on the fact. Somehow the big words and long paragraphs confuse you, and you take the wall of words to mean bad things. Just because a company takes pains to explain things doesn't make them evil. 

    Your little PIA quote said they don't log traffic. It didn't even MENTION your IP address! So you berate Air for being clear about how they use your IP to administer an OpenVPN server (i.e. get you connected) but laud PIA as a bastion of security because they don't even tell you that they do it, or even mention your IP address in that statement at all?

    It is genuinely saddening that your mental fixation is on PIA being great, rather than true privacy in general. Why else would you call names to other privacy activists and forum contributors (people who have taken time out of their day to give YOU support in the past)? You should be taking that energy and directing it on learning and supporting your fellow world citizens, not on petty namecalling based on a shallow understanding of network protocols and privacy implementations in extra-territorial jurisdictions. 

    So how does PIA's OpenVPN daemon know to route you to a given server and connect you to a shared IP? That's right, but collecting your IP address in VRAM (hopefully) and using it to operate the service. Just as AirVPN said they do. Is that data retained? No. Just like AirVPN. 

    You have the bit between your teeth when it comes to online privacy, but sadly your technical knowledge is limited. A little learning is a dangerous thing, as they say. Talking of things they say, there's an old adage about not arguing with a fool lest they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. I think it sage advice. 
  • rainmakerrawrainmakerraw
    edited April 2015
    Right now the € 54 equals less than $60 USD.

    And I have made my position very clear. Please do not try to robert_lazar me into the conversation. You are better than this.
    Thanks for remaining level headed as ever, omni. Yourself, @VPN, @cosmoxl and a couple of other high functioning users are the only reason I still hang around here, though being honest I don't think for very long. I've avoided being dragged into the nonsense until today, but it seems the trolls are hungry as ever for fresh meat. My time can be better spent supporting real users in open source communities rather than being called names by someone who can't even compose a simple argument devoid of strawmen and ad hominem retorts. 

    Air as a European company is USD$20 more expensive per annum than PIA. But European citizens get higher minimum levels of pay way in excess of American citizens, with guaranteed state benefit entitlements on top. Not to mention free healthcare and a guaranteed income for life. So actually when we level the analysis, AirVPN is much cheaper to EU citizens than PIA is to American citizens, based on a minimum wage job.

    The way this forum has gone PIA is a laughing stock of the free internet, a refuge for the mentally unstable and spammers. It's lamentable but in its present state the noise drowns out the real users seeking help and support, and in its present state the forum would be better off being removed altogether. Too much crazy in too small of a space. Take it easy friend.
  • catcher749catcher749
    edited April 2015
    Can the NSA conduct warrantless surveillance on overseas communications? Yes. Do they? Yes. Are you that naive or just that clueless? For your sake, I hope its the former. And I can pretty much guarantee that a Rain Man like yourself had nothing of value to give to me whenever that was in your own little fantasy. And yes, Air does make it clear that your IP address will be logged. And that's a fact. My facts vs. your rambling contradictions. Will let the readers of this decide who is the rational one.

    Telephone and computer communications of “millions of
    Italians    ” were reportedly being gathered.


    Yeah I'm sure the NSA had to work real hard to get that warrant that didn't exist. So please spare me and the rest of us the NSL bullshit Mr. Rain Man.
  • OmniNegroOmniNegro
    Right now the € 54 equals less than $60 USD.

    And I have made my position very clear. Please do not try to robert_lazar me into the conversation. You are better than this.
    Thanks for remaining level headed as ever, omni. Yourself, @VPN, @cosmoxl and a couple of other high functioning users are the only reason I still hang around here, though being honest I don't think for very long. I've avoided being dragged into the nonsense until today, but it seems the trolls are hungry as ever for fresh meat. My time can be better spent supporting real users in open source communities rather than being called names by someone who can't even compose a simple argument devoid of strawmen and ad hominem retorts. 

    Air as a European company is USD$20 more expensive per annum than PIA. But European citizens get higher minimum levels of pay way in excess of American citizens, with guaranteed state benefit entitlements on top. Not to mention free healthcare and a guaranteed income for life. So actually when we level the analysis, AirVPN is much cheaper to EU citizens than PIA is to American citizens, based on a minimum wage job.

    The way this forum has gone PIA is a laughing stock of the free internet, a refuge for the mentally unstable and spammers. It's lamentable but in its present state the noise drowns out the real users seeking help and support, and in its present state the forum would be better off being removed altogether. Too much crazy in too small of a space. Take it easy friend.
    You would not believe how many times over the years I have said to myself that I am done with the forums here. I even deleted the bookmarks I made and tried doing other things to distract myself. And I am still here. (Largely for the same reason you gave. The few remaining decent users deserve a decent response, and the rest have a ways to go before they get under my skin.)

    If you cease to exist here, we will miss you, but we will certainly understand. Good day to you as well. ;)
  • OmniNegroOmniNegro
    Can the NSA conduct warrantless surveillance on overseas communications? Yes. Do they? Yes. Are you that naive or just that clueless? For your sake, I hope its the former. And I can pretty much guarantee that a Rain Man like yourself had nothing of value to give to me whenever that was in your own little fantasy. And yes, Air does make it clear that your IP address will be logged. And that's a fact. My facts vs. your rambling contradictions. Will let the readers of this decide who is the rational one.
    And you still claim that Tor is safe? The NSA can do this worldwide, even on Tor nodes. So please explain how this can work both ways so long as you prefer it to be the case?
  • rainmakerrawrainmakerraw
    edited April 2015
    You sound like a paid shill for vikingvpn. Did you come here just to attack and bash the pia forum? The free internet is what this forum stands for. If you don't like it why dont't you go join a forum from communist China,,see how free they are.
    I'm not a paid shill for anyone, and have been a customer of PIA actively supporting users on this forum for a long time. What technical support do you provide? Nothing, you just count servers as if anyone cares. You extort the value of PIA 'growing' but fail to see that quantity is no substitute for quality, even though they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. I've said all along, today included, that I'm a PIA customer but that fact seems lost on the blindness of the trolls. 

    I've asked a lot of questions in this thread and received no answers, only insults. If one can't answer the basic questions then perhaps one's argument isn't as strong as it ought to be. 

    As for your comment about the NSA's extra-territorial surveillance catcher, of course they do. It's what they're there for. Since VPN has end-to-end encryption that doesn't matter, as they can't see inside it without also tapping the servers or directly attacking the endpoints. Edward Snowden confirmed this. 

    Since PIA is a US based company, they only have to produce a security letter and boom - they have full unencrypted access to PIA's servers (or any other servers of US based companies, this isn't a PIA specific discussion). They shouldn't even be wiretapping all the US citizens, but they did and continue to do so. Freedom indeed. 

    In the case of overseas surveillance however, they can't just wave around a security letter and make demands, they have to (try do) do so covertly. I'm sure they're very good at it, just the same as GCHQ, FSB and all the others. But with end-to-end encryption through servers not susceptible to security letters, there's nothing to see. 

    Sad you two decide to round on someone who gives to this community freely, especially when they're only asking basic questions. You seem to have an idea that PIA is hallowed and shouldn't be questioned. A security and privacy conscious individual should question absolutely everything, especially their own machines and those they think they can trust. 

    Once again, just because PIA is growing it doesn't mean a thing. The NSA is growing, China is growing, cancer is growing. The act of growing doesn't make things great. It just means they're growing! 

    Do PIA recommend and support open source, transparent, security audited software, or do they push closed source binaries that prevent you knowing what they're doing? 

    Do PIA have a US based company susceptible to security letters from the NSA? If so do you really trust them to 'close up shop' if and when they receive(d) one? Really? $1.5 million a year in income plus whatever bribes the NSA offer is a big incentive to keep your mouth shut a while, is it not? 

    Do PIA have platform-agnostic support including FreeBSD, OpenBSD, DD-WRT, Tomato, GNU/Linux, etc? Or do they just tell you to ask some other paying customer for help? If so why is this acceptable to you when you're already paying them money for their service and support? 

    Do PIA promptly answer questions, calls for help and issues arising on the forum? Are they replying in the Linux thread to help users screwed over by their broken platform-specific binary? (Hint: No they don't care because they're getting your money anyway).

    Just think about it. Rather than make a friend an enemy why not just take a step back and think about what you're typing. Calling someone a retard and a shill because they ask questions is mildly amusing, at least until it gets toxic, but it doesn't address anything, does it? 

    Quite sad that you'd turn your hostilities against people in the same boat as you - world citizens worried about their privacy. Maybe you should use that energy to question PIA about their lack of transparency, lack of open source support, lack of freedom (being told they'll only help you if you install a US made backdoored OS isn't 'freedom' imho) etc. Then maybe it will become a better company for ALL us customers. 

    PS: Robert, Viking is a logging arsehole based in... the USA. Why would I be discussing European privacy services as a European citizen, if I wanted to promote a US based VPN company... The very country I don't trust to host a privacy service? D'oh.

    Also apologies to Omni, the forum quoting is messed up and won't let me fix it. I realise it wasn't you who said what the quote lists you as saying. 
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