PIA updated TOS - Is PIA still to be trusted?

catcher749catcher749
in Off-topic Discussion
We at this community also reserve the right to disclose or reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you. We log all internet protocol addresses accessing this web site.

What kind of policy is this for a company that supposedly values user privacy? Not to mention this violates their own privacy policy. The passage of CISA gives private companies the ability to violate their own privacy policies with no legal repercussions. At this point, I'm not sure if PIA is right for me in 2016.


Comments

  • TarvinCallasTarvinCallas
    Hey folks, 

    Sorry for any misunderstanding, Our forum policies are entirely separate from our policies in regards to our VPN service itself.

    Best wishes!
  • catcher749catcher749

    TarvinCallas said:
    Hey folks, 

    Sorry for any misunderstanding, Our forum policies are entirely separate from our policies in regards to our VPN service itself.

    Best wishes!
    From PIA's own privacy policy:

    From the Website and Email
    • Google analytics data (appears anonymous). Google may store a cookie. Feel free to opt out with Google's plugin.
    • Apache Webserver (see apache.org) logs.
    • Submissions on the 'Contact Us' page.
    • Any e-mails we receive.
    • Affiliates who opt to use the optional control panel will receive a temporary cookie.

    I simply cannot trust a VPN company that logs their client's IP addresses (whether on the forum/website or the VPN itself), particularly now that CISA is law of the land.


  • catcher749catcher749

    God said:
    Why have separate policies if pia is one company.there is no damn law telling pia they have to log anything. But they log the website.why?
    Because CISA allows them to. Notice how this policy went into effect as soon as CISA was passed.
  • tomewormtomeworm
    What does CISA have to do with drafting and enforcing a TOS? Absolutely nothing.

    Catcher you should be smart enough to realize that robert_lazar is entirely responsible for bringing this about. Many people have contacted PIA in recent days demanding something be done about his posting gay porn, images of feces and used tampons, etc., not to mention all his filthy and profane gay sexual harassment statements.

    I'm very grateful that this can now be a safe place.
  • PIA-PaulPIA-Paul
    Catcher749 thank you for your comments.  This was all reviewed with our legal team and the section that you're referring to about logging has been removed from our TOS.  None of this has anything to do with CISA or any other law, government regulation, logging, etc..  PIA does not log VPN access.

    The TOS update only applies to our forums and it's just the rules and regulations that we ask users to follow if they choose to use the forum.  We applaud and encourage freedom of speech.  We stand up for it and freedom of speech and privacy are the core principles behind PIA.  However, there's a difference between freedom of speech and being down right disgusting to other users, clients, etc...

    That type of behavior may have a place on the web but our forums are no longer the place for it.  We're a strong community based on trust, privacy, freedom of speech, protection, etc...  We want to encourage everyone to be creative and to both adopt and advance technologies that always protect our rights.  However, discussions about rectums, pornographic images, photos of people masturbating, etc..  None of that has a place in PIA.

    There are entire websites and communities dedicated to that.
  • catcher749catcher749
    edited January 2016
    tomeworm said:
    What does CISA have to do with drafting and enforcing a TOS? Absolutely nothing.

    Catcher you should be smart enough to realize that robert_lazar is entirely responsible for bringing this about. Many people have contacted PIA in recent days demanding something be done about his posting gay porn, images of feces and used tampons, etc., not to mention all his filthy and profane gay sexual harassment statements.

    I'm very grateful that this can now be a safe place.
    It has a lot to do with it actually. Websites can share information (IP addresses and other PII) with the government with no liability. CISA virtually guarantees that the public will have no ability to see what information is being shared between companies and the government. I am not condoning robert_lazar's behavior, however data retention and/or broad censorship are red flags to me from a company that values privacy, so thankfully it has been removed from the TOS.
  • tomewormtomeworm
    catcher749 said:
    It has a lot to do with it actually. Websites can share information (IP addresses and other PII) with the government with no liability. CISA virtually guarantees that the public will have no ability to see what information is being shared between companies and the government. I am not condoning robert_lazar's behavior, however data retention and/or broad censorship are red flags to me from a company that values privacy, so thankfully it has been removed from the TOS.
    I'm very familiar with CISA. I have at least as much concern for the implications of CISA as you or anyone else. I just don't agree that it has much if anything to do with this TOS issue and robert_lazar.

    I raised my concern here on this forum a couple weeks ago about the fact that PIA's forum TOS said they log IP addresses. But after giving it further thought I realized it was a moot point since probably every PIA customer who uses these forums is accessing them via PIA vpn anyway.

    As to PIA and CISA, I share your concerns, but not because of the new forum TOS. The two are mutually exclusive. I've been concerned for years about any US-based company that I do business with in this Orwellian age and what they'll share with the gov't. The fact is major US corporations have already been doing so for years with complete impunity anyway. Sometimes they even get paid by the gov't to do it (think NSA and AT&T's Room 641A) and when they get found out and sued the gov't retroactively grants them immunity.

    Last year Walmart received $2B from the NSA to install facial recognition camera technology in all their stores. Why did NSA pick Walmart? Because 98-99% of all Americans either routinely shop at Walmart or will at least enter a Walmart at some point. And that was all done well prior to CISA and Walmart didn't need the legal protections of CISA to invade the privacy of 98% of all Americans.

    CISA increases my concerns, but only marginally. My privacy concerns have been elevated for over two decades now. We'll each have to decide what companies we feel we can trust. For my part I now trust PIA more after this new TOS, My confidence in them was very low, but it's now been elevated considerably. They've shown that they can be sensitive and responsive to customer concerns, at least on this particular issue. That's the kind of vpn provider I want to do business with.
  • catcher749catcher749
    tomeworm said:
    catcher749 said:
    It has a lot to do with it actually. Websites can share information (IP addresses and other PII) with the government with no liability. CISA virtually guarantees that the public will have no ability to see what information is being shared between companies and the government. I am not condoning robert_lazar's behavior, however data retention and/or broad censorship are red flags to me from a company that values privacy, so thankfully it has been removed from the TOS.
    I'm very familiar with CISA. I have at least as much concern for the implications of CISA as you or anyone else. I just don't agree that it has much if anything to do with this TOS issue and robert_lazar.

    I raised my concern here on this forum a couple weeks ago about the fact that PIA's forum TOS said they log IP addresses. But after giving it further thought I realized it was a moot point since probably every PIA customer who uses these forums is accessing them via PIA vpn anyway.

    As to PIA and CISA, I share your concerns, but not because of the new forum TOS. The two are mutually exclusive. I've been concerned for years about any US-based company that I do business with in this Orwellian age and what they'll share with the gov't. The fact is major US corporations have already been doing so for years with complete impunity anyway. Sometimes they even get paid by the gov't to do it (think NSA and AT&T's Room 641A) and when they get found out and sued the gov't retroactively grants them immunity.
    Well that's because they already had that in their privacy policies. Let me direct you to an answer PIA gave to TF in 2014.

    5. What steps are taken when a valid court order requires your company to identify an active user of your service?

    5. Once again, we do not log any traffic or session data. Additionally, unlike the EU and many other countries, our users are protected by legal definition. For this reason, we’re unable to identify any user of our service. Lastly, consumer protection laws exist in the US, unlike many other countries. We must abide by our advertised privacy policy.

    With CISA passed, that is no longer the case.
  • robert_lazarrobert_lazar

    Once again, we do not log any traffic or session data. Additionally, unlike the EU and many other countries, our users are protected by legal definition. For this reason, we’re unable to identify any user of our service. Lastly, consumer protection laws exist in the US, unlike many other countries. We must abide by our advertised privacy policy.

       Well pia claims cisa is voluntary.  I wonder why pia removed that stuff about ip address logging from their tos? hmmm

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