Is the latest announcement, "Private Internet Access does not log" a response to the PureVPN fiasco?

https://www.purevpn.com/privacy-policy.php
The first line of PureVPN's privacy policy states "We Do Not monitor user activity nor do we keep any logs."

However, the third line in the same privacy policy says this " Our servers automatically record the time at which you connect to any of our servers.'
Basically that means that PureVPN keeps "connection-logs".
The privacy policy goes on to explain:
" The time when a successful connection is made with our servers is counted as a “connection” and the total bandwidth used during this connection is called “bandwidth”. Connection and bandwidth are kept in record to maintain the quality of our service."


Now for the articles on oct 9th that prompted PIA to assure its customers of its no logging policy:

FBI uses PureVPN's 'non-existent' logs to track down internet stalker

https://betanews.com/2017/10/09/purevpn-logs-fbi/

Cyberstalking Suspect Arrested After VPN Providers Shared Logs With the FBI

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/cyberstalking-suspect-arrested-after-vpn-providers-shared-logs-with-the-fbi/

Other articles for the same story:
http://wccftech.com/cyberstalking-suspect-arrested-vpn-logs/
https://torrentfreak.com/purevpn-logs-helped-fbi-net-alleged-cyberstalker-171009/
«1

Comments

  • Posts: 265
    Is the latest announcement, "Private Internet Access does not log" a response to the PureVPN fiasco?

    Yup! Our no logging policy is one of our core values. I would quit on the spot if I heard anything related to adding logging, and I'm pretty a whole bunch of my coworkers share that opinion.
  • Posts: 223
    Max-P said:
    Is the latest announcement, "Private Internet Access does not log" a response to the PureVPN fiasco?

    Yup! Our no logging policy is one of our core values. I would quit on the spot if I heard anything related to adding logging, and I'm pretty a whole bunch of my coworkers share that opinion.
    Thank you! The no logging policy and reliable network of secure servers is why Private Internet Access is my first and only VPN provider. Thank you for providing such an excellent service!
  • edited October 12 Posts: 62
    Uhhh,,, i'd like to point out that the announcement from PIA is factually incorrect and thus in part not true. The announcement is located at > https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/forum/discussion/25521/private-internet-access-does-not-log < and reads, in its entirety, thus (as of the time of this post):

    "In light of recent news, we would like our clients to rest assured that, as has been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will. Thank you for helping us fight the good fight."

    It was not, and has not been, "proven in US court" that PIA does not log. What happened was the investigating law enforcement agency for a case was unable to get any logs from PIA and basically the standard PIA response was given. This was mentioned in the complaint documents presented to the court as is done in any case in which logs are asked for, or subpoenaed, from any entity. However, the case was not about PIA and there was never any proof presented "in US court" that PIA does not log nor was there any proof sought for or "in US court" nor was PIA asked or required to present any proof "in US court" that PIA does not log. The PIA response that "we do not log" or are "unable to provide any logs because they don't exist" or similar is not proof of anything other than that's what PIA said and does not prove that PIA does not log. PureVPN said, basically, the same thing, "we don't log", but hmmmm... well you know the rest from the OP links in the first post.

    Anyone that tells you just what you want to hear, in this case "we do not log", needs to be scrutinized more closely especially when they say this in some sort of official statement that is factually incorrect and thus not true. 


    Post edited by jbis on
  • Posts: 293
    @jbis: Nice spot and thanks for your scrutiny.

    I guess the bottom line is we have to trust PIA and in any case, a VPN is to protect our privay, NOT so we can commit (and hide) criminal activity.
  • Posts: 223
    jbis said:
    Uhhh,,, i'd like to point out that the announcement from PIA is factually incorrect and thus in part not true. The announcement is located at > https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/forum/discussion/25521/private-internet-access-does-not-log < and reads, in its entirety, thus (as of the time of this post):

    "In light of recent news, we would like our clients to rest assured that, as has been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will. Thank you for helping us fight the good fight."

    It was not, and has not been, "proven in US court" that PIA does not log. What happened was the investigating law enforcement agency for a case was unable to get any logs from PIA and basically the standard PIA response was given. This was mentioned in the complaint documents presented to the court as is done in any case in which logs are asked for, or subpoenaed, from any entity. However, the case was not about PIA and there was never any proof presented "in US court" that PIA does not log nor was there any proof sought for or "in US court" nor was PIA asked or required to present any proof "in US court" that PIA does not log. The PIA response that "we do not log" or are "unable to provide any logs because they don't exist" or similar is not proof of anything other than that's what PIA said and does not prove that PIA does not log. PureVPN said, basically, the same thing, "we don't log", but hmmmm... well you know the rest from the OP links in the first post.

    Anyone that tells you just what you want to hear, in this case "we do not log", needs to be scrutinized more closely especially when they say this in some sort of official statement that is factually incorrect and thus not true. 


    They wouldn't lie about something that could easily be fact checked and proven false. There are public court documents to prove that they do not keep any logs.
    https://helpdesk.privateinternetaccess.com/hc/en-us/articles/229347907-Do-You-Log-
    https://www.scribd.com/doc/303226103/Fake-bomb-threat-arrest
  • edited October 12 Posts: 62
    OpenVPN said:
    jbis said:
    Uhhh,,, i'd like to point out that the announcement from PIA is factually incorrect and thus in part not true. The announcement is located at > https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/forum/discussion/25521/private-internet-access-does-not-log < and reads, in its entirety, thus (as of the time of this post):

    "In light of recent news, we would like our clients to rest assured that, as has been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will. Thank you for helping us fight the good fight."

    It was not, and has not been, "proven in US court" that PIA does not log. What happened was the investigating law enforcement agency for a case was unable to get any logs from PIA and basically the standard PIA response was given. This was mentioned in the complaint documents presented to the court as is done in any case in which logs are asked for, or subpoenaed, from any entity. However, the case was not about PIA and there was never any proof presented "in US court" that PIA does not log nor was there any proof sought for or "in US court" nor was PIA asked or required to present any proof "in US court" that PIA does not log. The PIA response that "we do not log" or are "unable to provide any logs because they don't exist" or similar is not proof of anything other than that's what PIA said and does not prove that PIA does not log. PureVPN said, basically, the same thing, "we don't log", but hmmmm... well you know the rest from the OP links in the first post.

    Anyone that tells you just what you want to hear, in this case "we do not log", needs to be scrutinized more closely especially when they say this in some sort of official statement that is factually incorrect and thus not true. 


    They wouldn't lie about something that could easily be fact checked and proven false. There are public court documents to prove that they do not keep any logs.
    https://helpdesk.privateinternetaccess.com/hc/en-us/articles/229347907-Do-You-Log-
    https://www.scribd.com/doc/303226103/Fake-bomb-threat-arrest
    Those documents do not "prove" anything except that PIA basically said "we can't supply any logs because we don't keep them" or similar - those statements are not proof, its just what someone said.

    So, you can point to a document where they say they don't log but its not proof of anything other than they said it. The PIA announcement claims "as has been proven in US court" - but a statement response is not proof "in US court" or any court. If there were proof then the documents or the court case would have presented actual evidence (proof) showing there were no logs or they do not log, statements of "we don't log" or similar are not evidence (proof) and is just taking someones word for it. People took the word of PureVPN at face value, and they had their defenders too that said the same thing you are saying now, but it turned out not to be actually true. Proof is what actually is not what someone says it is. That's what PIA is doing, they say "we don't log" but its what they just say it is and not proof they do not log. Read the documents carefully, they do not present any proof that PIA does not log and only give the statements response to the investigating law enforcement agency that's basically "we can't supply any logs because we do not keep logs" and no one is going to follow up on that from the case because the case was not about PIA so PIA is pretty safe in saying that but if the day comes when the case is about PIA and it involves logging then PIA will have to show actual proof at that time and simply saying "we don't log" will not be enough. The PIA announcement is false because there was no proof "in US court" and only what they said. 


    Post edited by jbis on
  • Posts: 572
    OpenVPN said:
    They wouldn't lie about something that could easily be fact checked and proven false.
    Maybe. Maybe not. The problem here is that the fact checking can only extend so far. The rest we have to leave up to speculation and hope for the best. VPNs have been caught lying before about not logging, or claiming they would never commence loggin in the event they were legally ordered to do so. Their lies are only discovered after it's too late. In this one case and this case only PIA was able to wriggle their way out of complying with FBI demands for log files. By the time the FBI came knocking on PIA's door they already had plenty to go on and didn't need to apply any more pressure. But to say PIA were less than helpful to the FBI would be a stretch:

    However, [Private Internet Access] did provide that they accept payment for their services with a vendor company of Stripe and/or Amazon. They also accept forms of payment online through paypal, bitpay, bitcoin, cashyou, ripple, ok pay, and pay garden.

    From all appearances that was information they volunteered. It was also information that benefited the FBI in their investigation by helping them connect more dots needed to petition for an arrest warrant.

    What happens in the future when PIA receives a FISA order to commence logging the activity of specific client(s) based on username, originating IP address, etc? Or what if the FBI obtains a FISA warrant requiring PIA to commence logging all of its customers from a specific regional area (e.g. Florida) because they haven't been able to adequately narrow down a suspect to a specific username or originating IP address? Can PIA legally refuse? No, they cannot. Can they warn us of what the FBI is up to? Not directly but they could indirectly through a warrant canary. Oh, wait, PIA refuses to post a warrant canary for reasons which no one but they can comprehend.

    Any vpn that claims they don't log is lying. They all log to varying degrees. Logging is inherently necessary to operate and maintain any network, particularly any network that requires users to log in. PIA clearly does log. How else are they able to limit the number of concurrent connections to 5/user unless they are logging? Are PIA's logs retained? Are they stored beyond the duration of a user's connection? Let's assume not. Perhaps their logs are only stored in volatile RAM and go poof the moment the user disconnects. However, even so there is a log so long as a user is connected, and for some users a connection to a given server may be up for days. So that is still potentially problematic and the very reason why, even though I stay connected to PIA pretty much all the time I also disconnect and reconnect frequently, often to a different region.

    I'll give PIA the benefit of the doubt and assume that's the case (no long-term storage of log files); but my concern is their claim "There are no logs. There is no identifying information that can be collected, regardless of the amount of force applied." This is false on both counts: 1. Even volatile/temporary logs are still logs. 2. A FISA order to commence logging of one or more users will most definitely place PIA in the position of having to collect user data. The fact that PIA shut down its servers in Russia, a country which likely provided very few customers, hardly makes the case that PIA would shut down their entire operations in the US over receipt of a single FISA order. I have serious doubts they would do so, and the fact that they refuse to post a warrant canary only adds to my doubts.

    So after all the so-called "fact checking" most of what we're left with is this nebulous thing called "trust." Do I trust PIA? Only insofar as my online activities don't constitute anything criminal anyway. If I were engaged in anything that were likely to draw the attention of the FBI then no, absolutely not. I'd be looking elsewhere, and at the very least for a vpn that posts a warrant canary.
  • Posts: 223
    tomeworm said:
    OpenVPN said:
    They wouldn't lie about something that could easily be fact checked and proven false.
    Maybe. Maybe not. The problem here is that the fact checking can only extend so far. The rest we have to leave up to speculation and hope for the best. VPNs have been caught lying before about not logging, or claiming they would never commence loggin in the event they were legally ordered to do so. Their lies are only discovered after it's too late. In this one case and this case only PIA was able to wriggle their way out of complying with FBI demands for log files. By the time the FBI came knocking on PIA's door they already had plenty to go on and didn't need to apply any more pressure. But to say PIA were less than helpful to the FBI would be a stretch:

    However, [Private Internet Access] did provide that they accept payment for their services with a vendor company of Stripe and/or Amazon. They also accept forms of payment online through paypal, bitpay, bitcoin, cashyou, ripple, ok pay, and pay garden.

    From all appearances that was information they volunteered. It was also information that benefited the FBI in their investigation by helping them connect more dots needed to petition for an arrest warrant.

    What happens in the future when PIA receives a FISA order to commence logging the activity of specific client(s) based on username, originating IP address, etc? Or what if the FBI obtains a FISA warrant requiring PIA to commence logging all of its customers from a specific regional area (e.g. Florida) because they haven't been able to adequately narrow down a suspect to a specific username or originating IP address? Can PIA legally refuse? No, they cannot. Can they warn us of what the FBI is up to? Not directly but they could indirectly through a warrant canary. Oh, wait, PIA refuses to post a warrant canary for reasons which no one but they can comprehend.

    Any vpn that claims they don't log is lying. They all log to varying degrees. Logging is inherently necessary to operate and maintain any network, particularly any network that requires users to log in. PIA clearly does log. How else are they able to limit the number of concurrent connections to 5/user unless they are logging? Are PIA's logs retained? Are they stored beyond the duration of a user's connection? Let's assume not. Perhaps their logs are only stored in volatile RAM and go poof the moment the user disconnects. However, even so there is a log so long as a user is connected, and for some users a connection to a given server may be up for days. So that is still potentially problematic and the very reason why, even though I stay connected to PIA pretty much all the time I also disconnect and reconnect frequently, often to a different region.

    I'll give PIA the benefit of the doubt and assume that's the case (no long-term storage of log files); but my concern is their claim "There are no logs. There is no identifying information that can be collected, regardless of the amount of force applied." This is false on both counts: 1. Even volatile/temporary logs are still logs. 2. A FISA order to commence logging of one or more users will most definitely place PIA in the position of having to collect user data. The fact that PIA shut down its servers in Russia, a country which likely provided very few customers, hardly makes the case that PIA would shut down their entire operations in the US over receipt of a single FISA order. I have serious doubts they would do so, and the fact that they refuse to post a warrant canary only adds to my doubts.

    So after all the so-called "fact checking" most of what we're left with is this nebulous thing called "trust." Do I trust PIA? Only insofar as my online activities don't constitute anything criminal anyway. If I were engaged in anything that were likely to draw the attention of the FBI then no, absolutely not. I'd be looking elsewhere, and at the very least for a vpn that posts a warrant canary.
    I think you guys are getting to be a little paranoid. Private Internet Access released a statement in 2013, detailing what they would do if they were ever compelled by the Government to start logging user data.
    https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2013/06/prism/

    If Private Internet Access does receive a warrent from the Government which compels them to betray customer trust and start logging user data, the logs would be completely useless due to the shared IP system. I'm certain they have a contingency plan in place for this possibility. We don't have anything to worry about.
  • edited October 13 Posts: 265
    In all cases I think there is just no way we could ever fully prove that we don't log. The cited court document is about as close as it can go. For those who have never seen a subpoena, here's an example one I happen to remember from a while ago: https://cock.li/transparency/2017-08-28-subpoena/subpoena.pdf. Once you have one of those, it's a really bad idea to delete anything as you could be accused of interfering with law enforcement and much trouble. As @jbis points out, PIA could have lied in court about having any logs, but that would be an extremely dangerous situation to be in because from that point any proof that we would have had log the company would be in a lot of trouble. This also raises the question of why we'd lie in court about not having logs at all. What use would we have from logs that would be precious enough to lie about it but still have them, yet not even share them with law enforcement?

    With the linked subpoena in mind, there's also the case of the warrant canary. The wording says
    If compliance with this request may result in a permanent or temporary termination of service to the accounts described below, or otherwise alert the subscriber or user of these accounts as to your actions to preserve the referenced files and records, please ...
    A warrant canary, even being the lack of something, would likely be considered by court as a form of alerting the user. I wouldn't trust a warrant canary to do anything useful when they can just force you to do nothing.


    I think the only real way to protect the company against that kind of legal letters is to just not have any of those logs at all. This is something that's unfortunately impossible to prove, no matter how you approach the problem. Even if we open-sourced the entirety of our stuff, there is still no guarantee this is the stuff we run. Even if we gave root access to everyone to verify as they wish, there still wouldn't be any way to prove that we're not somehow secretly logging from a hidden hypervisor or even by tapping directly into the hardware and MitM the RAM. No matter how deep we go into this, there is no situation where we couldn't get around it unless the customer literally provides and installs the hardware and software. At which point, it's not really PIA anymore.

    We can go real deep into this. Let's say PIA is all clean for a fact: there is still nothing proving that none of PIA's server and network partners also won't submit to a court order. Who knows if they port mirror all of PIA's traffic at the switch level into a logger server that logs all packets going in and out and correlate individual connections with timing attacks? What if the government entity we're fighting against uses Intel's Management Engine and knows more than we can ever realistically monitor?

    What if they really want us badly enough that they send agents force the developers to add logging by pointing a gun an them and threatening to shoot if they don't comply?

    There will always be a trust element to this. The question is more of how powerful your adversary is and what they're ready to do to get to you. 5 eyes, 13 eyes, it doesn't matter. Unless you can find a VPN that's based in a country that's completely closed to foreigners, that have the local authority on their side, has nobody inside that can be paid enough to go point a gun at the developers and with all servers hosted in that same country, then it's a battle you can't win.
    Post edited by Max-P on
  • edited October 13 Posts: 62
    https://www.purevpn.com/pages/why-purevpn.php

    "Zero Logging Of Your Activities

    We practice Zero Log policy that means we do not record your activities or what you do online. Our commitment to preserve your online privacy is second to none."

    Sound familiar?

    What PIA says, even as noble sounding as PIA's statements of protecting VPN uses and no logging and their statements of what they would do if somehow forced to log, is still only what they say and thus is not proof of no logs existing or no logging "in US court" or any court. PIA telling a law enforcement agency "we do not have any logs because we don't log", or similar, is not proof of no logs existing or no logging "in US court" or any court.

    Fact: The PIA announcement at  > https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/forum/discussion/25521/private-internet-access-does-not-log < is false because it has not "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

    Fact: There was absolutely zero proof presented "in US court" that "Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

    Fact: There never has been any proof "in US court" or any court in the world that "Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

    The PIA announcement statement is false.


    1. A company that makes a statement with a lie in it to tell people just what they want to hear can not be trusted.

    2. A company that does not know the difference between saying something and what actually is (e.g. in this case saying they do not log vs been proven in U.S Court) can not be trusted and is living in a fantasy world.

    It is foolish to believe such PIA, or any VPN supplier, statements of "we do not log" or similar without such statements having been proven with actual proof. So if PIA is going to claim "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" they should be able to present that proof upon demand to paying customers and the public at large because according to their announcement statement the proof has already been presented in U.S. Court which makes it public record anyway yet the court record makes not mention of any proof presented that "Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will". So, where is the proof PIA? The law requires that claims made by a company be factually substantiated, the claim by PIA is that it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" - so PIA should be able to back up that claim with factual proof that PIA "does not store any type of logs and never will" and not just what they say.

    I'd also like to point out that the PIA announcement statement says "does not store any type of logs and never will" - and it does not say "we do not log". PIA as a company entity may or may not really store log's or log and we do not really know, but I can guarantee you their 'contracted tech support entity' did. 

    Post edited by jbis on
  • Posts: 572
    @Max-P, I sense you're a reasonable person, as well as technically astute, which is more than I can say for most other PIA employees. Perhaps you're even honest. Perhaps. If so then that too would be far more than I could say for too many PIA staff I've run across.

    Too many PIA staff have a penchant for exaggeration and overstatements to sell the company, or what I refer to as "marketing hype." This issue of PIA's alleged "no logging" policy is an excellent example of that and one which I find highly offensive. It's also insulting to my intelligence. Marketing hype is rooted in two things I disdain, deception, and self-interest over the customer's best interest.

    PIA staff routinely make the claim that, "PIA doesn't log and never will, period!" As I've already stated that is false on both counts. You have yet to respond directly to that. Instead you've now gone off on hypotheticals that I didn't raise. Are you doing so in an attempt to invalidate my concerns and make me sound like some paranoid whackjob? I hope not. I simply brought up the very real and very plausible scenario of a FISA order. I've also pointed out that you can't operate your network without logging. No vpn can. Yet your marketing hype-driven staff keep claiming that "PIA doesn't log," which is an impossibility.

    Time to square your marketing statements with technical realities.
  • Posts: 223
    jbis said:
    https://www.purevpn.com/pages/why-purevpn.php

    "Zero Logging Of Your Activities

    We practice Zero Log policy that means we do not record your activities or what you do online. Our commitment to preserve your online privacy is second to none."

    Sound familiar?

    What PIA says, even as noble sounding as PIA's statements of protecting VPN uses and no logging and their statements of what they would do if somehow forced to log, is still only what they say and thus is not proof of no logs existing or no logging "in US court" or any court. PIA telling a law enforcement agency "we do not have any logs because we don't log", or similar, is not proof of no logs existing or no logging "in US court" or any court.

    Fact: The PIA announcement at  > https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/forum/discussion/25521/private-internet-access-does-not-log < is false because it has not "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

    Fact: There was absolutely zero proof presented "in US court" that "Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

    Fact: There never has been any proof "in US court" or any court in the world that "Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

    The PIA announcement statement is false.


    1. A company that makes a statement with a lie in it to tell people just what they want to hear can not be trusted.

    2. A company that does not know the difference between saying something and what actually is (e.g. in this case saying they do not log vs been proven in U.S Court) can not be trusted and is living in a fantasy world.

    It is foolish to believe such PIA, or any VPN supplier, statements of "we do not log" or similar without such statements having been proven with actual proof. So if PIA is going to claim "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" they should be able to present that proof upon demand to paying customers and the public at large because according to their announcement statement the proof has already been presented in U.S. Court which makes it public record anyway yet the court record makes not mention of any proof presented that "Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will". So, where is the proof PIA? The law requires that claims made by a company be factually substantiated, the claim by PIA is that it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" - so PIA should be able to back up that claim with factual proof that PIA "does not store any type of logs and never will" and not just what they say.

    I'd also like to point out that the PIA announcement statement says "does not store any type of logs and never will" - and it does not say "we do not log". PIA as a company entity may or may not really store log's or log and we do not really know, but I can guarantee you their 'contracted tech support entity' did. 

    Here's a simple solution: if you are not satisfied with the service or you don't believe the companies no Logging policy then switch to another VPN provider. Any Individual who subscribes to an internet based service must place a certain level of trust in the service provider to keep personal information private and secure even under scrutiny.  @Max-P always provides professional and direct answers to all of our questions.

    Max-P said:
    In all cases I think there is just no way we could ever fully prove that we don't log. The cited court document is about as close as it can go. For those who have never seen a subpoena, here's an example one I happen to remember from a while ago: https://cock.li/transparency/2017-08-28-subpoena/subpoena.pdf. Once you have one of those, it's a really bad idea to delete anything as you could be accused of interfering with law enforcement and much trouble. As @jbis points out, PIA could have lied in court about having any logs, but that would be an extremely dangerous situation to be in because from that point any proof that we would have had log the company would be in a lot of trouble. This also raises the question of why we'd lie in court about not having logs at all. What use would we have from logs that would be precious enough to lie about it but still have them, yet not even share them with law enforcement?

    With the linked subpoena in mind, there's also the case of the warrant canary. The wording says
    If compliance with this request may result in a permanent or temporary termination of service to the accounts described below, or otherwise alert the subscriber or user of these accounts as to your actions to preserve the referenced files and records, please ...
    A warrant canary, even being the lack of something, would likely be considered by court as a form of alerting the user. I wouldn't trust a warrant canary to do anything useful when they can just force you to do nothing.


    I think the only real way to protect the company against that kind of legal letters is to just not have any of those logs at all. This is something that's unfortunately impossible to prove, no matter how you approach the problem. Even if we open-sourced the entirety of our stuff, there is still no guarantee this is the stuff we run. Even if we gave root access to everyone to verify as they wish, there still wouldn't be any way to prove that we're not somehow secretly logging from a hidden hypervisor or even by tapping directly into the hardware and MitM the RAM. No matter how deep we go into this, there is no situation where we couldn't get around it unless the customer literally provides and installs the hardware and software. At which point, it's not really PIA anymore.

    We can go real deep into this. Let's say PIA is all clean for a fact: there is still nothing proving that none of PIA's server and network partners also won't submit to a court order. Who knows if they port mirror all of PIA's traffic at the switch level into a logger server that logs all packets going in and out and correlate individual connections with timing attacks? What if the government entity we're fighting against uses Intel's Management Engine and knows more than we can ever realistically monitor?

    What if they really want us badly enough that they send agents force the developers to add logging by pointing a gun an them and threatening to shoot if they don't comply?

    There will always be a trust element to this. The question is more of how powerful your adversary is and what they're ready to do to get to you. 5 eyes, 13 eyes, it doesn't matter. Unless you can find a VPN that's based in a country that's completely closed to foreigners, that have the local authority on their side, has nobody inside that can be paid enough to go point a gun at the developers and with all servers hosted in that same country, then it's a battle you can't win.
    Thank you for the detailed response.
  • edited October 13 Posts: 62
    OpenVPN said:
    jbis said:
    https://www.purevpn.com/pages/why-purevpn.php

    "Zero Logging Of Your Activities

    We practice Zero Log policy that means we do not record your activities or what you do online. Our commitment to preserve your online privacy is second to none."

    Sound familiar?

    What PIA says, even as noble sounding as PIA's statements of protecting VPN uses and no logging and their statements of what they would do if somehow forced to log, is still only what they say and thus is not proof of no logs existing or no logging "in US court" or any court. PIA telling a law enforcement agency "we do not have any logs because we don't log", or similar, is not proof of no logs existing or no logging "in US court" or any court.

    Fact: The PIA announcement at  > https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/forum/discussion/25521/private-internet-access-does-not-log < is false because it has not "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

    Fact: There was absolutely zero proof presented "in US court" that "Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

    Fact: There never has been any proof "in US court" or any court in the world that "Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

    The PIA announcement statement is false.


    1. A company that makes a statement with a lie in it to tell people just what they want to hear can not be trusted.

    2. A company that does not know the difference between saying something and what actually is (e.g. in this case saying they do not log vs been proven in U.S Court) can not be trusted and is living in a fantasy world.

    It is foolish to believe such PIA, or any VPN supplier, statements of "we do not log" or similar without such statements having been proven with actual proof. So if PIA is going to claim "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" they should be able to present that proof upon demand to paying customers and the public at large because according to their announcement statement the proof has already been presented in U.S. Court which makes it public record anyway yet the court record makes not mention of any proof presented that "Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will". So, where is the proof PIA? The law requires that claims made by a company be factually substantiated, the claim by PIA is that it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" - so PIA should be able to back up that claim with factual proof that PIA "does not store any type of logs and never will" and not just what they say.

    I'd also like to point out that the PIA announcement statement says "does not store any type of logs and never will" - and it does not say "we do not log". PIA as a company entity may or may not really store log's or log and we do not really know, but I can guarantee you their 'contracted tech support entity' did. 

    Here's a simple solution: if you are not satisfied with the service or you don't believe the companies no Logging policy then switch to another VPN provider. Any Individual who subscribes to an internet based service must place a certain level of trust in the service provider to keep personal information private and secure even under scrutiny.  @Max-P always provides professional and direct answers to all of our questions.

    You miss the point. It does not matter if I or anyone else is or is not satisfied with the service. The point is the claim by PIA in the announcement is false as it has not been "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" .

    Sure, you want to place certain amount of trust in the service provider. However, when the service provider starts making false claims is it wise to think that such false claims are deserving of trust?

    So far, on this subject, the only thing that Max-P has provided is more words. He has not substantiated that it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" yet this false announcement statement is still posted without one single piece of proof that it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" . He and you point to the court documents and no where in the court documents or in the court record for that case is there any proof  that it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

    There is, for 100% fact, absolutely zero proof that it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" < a company making a statement for which there zero proof to substantiate the statement has lied to its customers and the public

    So in short; By making that false announcement statement and not being able to show the proof and letting the announcement statement remain posted Max-P is perpetuating a lie.

    Is it wise to place trust in liars?
    Post edited by jbis on
  • edited October 13 Posts: 38
    @jbis, Whilst I understand your comment, it is a logical fallacy. By your own definition, you are calling us liars as you believe we are unable to prove what has been said.

    Ignoring the logic fallacies presented in your argument, I would urge you to consider this:

    When PIA has faced situations which potentially could have resulted in the breach of privacy and security of our customers (including the potential of installing loggers), PIA has always reacted swiftly to ensure that could not happen.

    Examples of this include the complete withdrawing from Russia (due to legislation changes) and the temporary withdrawing from Germany (when it was discovered that our Datacentre provider had provided other customer data for other companies). We were also the company who paid for a full page spread in the New York Times to highlight the impact to online privacy on multiple occasions.

    We also donate to the a large number of security audits, FOSS projects and digital rights and freedom organisations who align with our belief for a better internet.... which includes no logging.


    Jayson Q.
    Head of Customer Support
    Post edited by PIAJayson on
  • Posts: 223
    PIAJayson said:
    @jbis, Whilst I understand your comment, it is a logical fallacy. By your own definition, you are calling us liars as you believe we are unable to prove what has been said.

    Ignoring the logic fallacies presented in your argument, I would urge you to consider this:

    When PIA has faced situations which potentially could have resulted in the breach of privacy and security of our customers (including the potential of installing loggers), PIA has always reacted swiftly to ensure that could not happen.

    Examples of this include the complete withdrawing from Russia (due to legislation changes) and the temporary withdrawing from Germany (when it was discovered that our Datacentre provider had provided other customer data for other companies). We were also the company who paid for a full page spread in the New York Times to highlight the impact to online privacy on multiple occasions.

    We also donate to the a large number of security audits, FOSS projects and digital rights and freedom organisations who align with our belief for a better internet.... which includes no logging.
    Well said! The no logging policy and reliable network of secure servers is why I choose PIA over all others. I trust you guys.
  • Posts: 62
    PIAJayson said:
    @jbis, Whilst I understand your comment, it is a logical fallacy. By your own definition, you are calling us liars as you believe we are unable to prove what has been said.

    Ignoring the logic fallacies presented in your argument, I would urge you to consider this:

    When PIA has faced situations which potentially could have resulted in the breach of privacy and security of our customers (including the potential of installing loggers), PIA has always reacted swiftly to ensure that could not happen.

    Examples of this include the complete withdrawing from Russia (due to legislation changes) and the temporary withdrawing from Germany (when it was discovered that our Datacentre provider had provided other customer data for other companies). We were also the company who paid for a full page spread in the New York Times to highlight the impact to online privacy on multiple occasions.

    We also donate to the a large number of security audits, FOSS projects and digital rights and freedom organisations who align with our belief for a better internet.... which includes no logging.
    Logic fallacies?

    Even you do not see the difference in what you are saying. Talk about logic fallacies.

    It does not matter that PIA withdrew from Russia. It does not matter that PIA had full page spreads. It does not matter that PIA donates to whoever. It does not matter that PIA may have acted swiftly in the cases of data breach.

    At question is the PIA announcement claiming it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" <

    Because you appear to be blind and not see it and instead deflect from the question, I will say it for you with nice big letters so you can see it > THE QUESTION IS NOT ANY OF THAT STUFF YOU POST NOW ACCUSING "LOGIC FALLACIES" AND ALL THE OTHER STUFF YOU ARE USING TO AVOID AND DEFLECT FROM THE QUESTION. IF PIA CLAIMS it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY ZERO PROOF OF SUCH IN ANY U.S. COURT (OR ANY COURT IN THE WORLD FOR THAT MATTER) THEN THE CLAIM BY PIA THAT it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" IS NOT TRUE, PERIOD, so yes its a lie. Your post now with its baseless and false accusation and unrelated to the question stuff is only another attempt to deflect from and support what is a lie from PIA and that lie is in plain black and white for the whole world to see right here > https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/forum/discussion/25521/private-internet-access-does-not-log.


    You seem to think that proof is what PIA say's, that is not proof. Proof is what actually is and not what PIA say's it is. PIA claims it has been "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will", that is 100% a false statement because it was not "proven in US court" and never has been - so yes its a lie.

    Talk about logic fallacies - your very post is the poster child example of logic fallacies. Your own arrogance and zeal to neat the PIA drum loudly to down out others has blinded you to the simple fact that the PIA announcement statement
    it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" is not true and thus a lie.



  • edited October 13 Posts: 223
    jbis said:
    PIAJayson said:
    @jbis, Whilst I understand your comment, it is a logical fallacy. By your own definition, you are calling us liars as you believe we are unable to prove what has been said.

    Ignoring the logic fallacies presented in your argument, I would urge you to consider this:

    When PIA has faced situations which potentially could have resulted in the breach of privacy and security of our customers (including the potential of installing loggers), PIA has always reacted swiftly to ensure that could not happen.

    Examples of this include the complete withdrawing from Russia (due to legislation changes) and the temporary withdrawing from Germany (when it was discovered that our Datacentre provider had provided other customer data for other companies). We were also the company who paid for a full page spread in the New York Times to highlight the impact to online privacy on multiple occasions.

    We also donate to the a large number of security audits, FOSS projects and digital rights and freedom organisations who align with our belief for a better internet.... which includes no logging.
    Logic fallacies?

    Even you do not see the difference in what you are saying. Talk about logic fallacies.

    It does not matter that PIA withdrew from Russia. It does not matter that PIA had full page spreads. It does not matter that PIA donates to whoever. It does not matter that PIA may have acted swiftly in the cases of data breach.

    At question is the PIA announcement claiming it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" <

    Because you appear to be blind and not see it and instead deflect from the question, I will say it for you with nice big letters so you can see it > THE QUESTION IS NOT ANY OF THAT STUFF YOU POST NOW ACCUSING "LOGIC FALLACIES" AND ALL THE OTHER STUFF YOU ARE USING TO AVOID AND DEFLECT FROM THE QUESTION. IF PIA CLAIMS it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY ZERO PROOF OF SUCH IN ANY U.S. COURT (OR ANY COURT IN THE WORLD FOR THAT MATTER) THEN THE CLAIM BY PIA THAT it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" IS NOT TRUE, PERIOD, so yes its a lie. Your post now with its baseless and false accusation and unrelated to the question stuff is only another attempt to deflect from and support what is a lie from PIA and that lie is in plain black and white for the whole world to see right here > https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/forum/discussion/25521/private-internet-access-does-not-log.


    You seem to think that proof is what PIA say's, that is not proof. Proof is what actually is and not what PIA say's it is. PIA claims it has been "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will", that is 100% a false statement because it was not "proven in US court" and never has been - so yes its a lie.

    Talk about logic fallacies - your very post is the poster child example of logic fallacies. Your own arrogance and zeal to neat the PIA drum loudly to down out others has blinded you to the simple fact that the PIA announcement statement
    it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" is not true and thus a lie.



    You wouldn't be giving your money to people whom you call liars so you obviously aren't a real customer. You are obviously just an Internet troll
    Post edited by OpenVPN on
  • edited October 13 Posts: 38
    jbis said:
    Logic fallacies?

    Even you do not see the difference in what you are saying. Talk about logic fallacies.

    It does not matter that PIA withdrew from Russia. It does not matter that PIA had full page spreads. It does not matter that PIA donates to whoever. It does not matter that PIA may have acted swiftly in the cases of data breach.

    At question is the PIA announcement claiming it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" <

    Because you appear to be blind and not see it and instead deflect from the question, I will say it for you with nice big letters so you can see it > THE QUESTION IS NOT ANY OF THAT STUFF YOU POST NOW ACCUSING "LOGIC FALLACIES" AND ALL THE OTHER STUFF YOU ARE USING TO AVOID AND DEFLECT FROM THE QUESTION. IF PIA CLAIMS it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY ZERO PROOF OF SUCH IN ANY U.S. COURT (OR ANY COURT IN THE WORLD FOR THAT MATTER) THEN THE CLAIM BY PIA THAT it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" IS NOT TRUE, PERIOD, so yes its a lie. Your post now with its baseless and false accusation and unrelated to the question stuff is only another attempt to deflect from and support what is a lie from PIA and that lie is in plain black and white for the whole world to see right here > https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/forum/discussion/25521/private-internet-access-does-not-log.


    You seem to think that proof is what PIA say's, that is not proof. Proof is what actually is and not what PIA say's it is. PIA claims it has been "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will", that is 100% a false statement because it was not "proven in US court" and never has been - so yes its a lie.

    Talk about logic fallacies - your very post is the poster child example of logic fallacies. Your own arrogance and zeal to neat the PIA drum loudly to down out others has blinded you to the simple fact that the PIA announcement statement
    it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" is not true and thus a lie.



    Okay, I'll rephrase for the sake of clarity, transparency and the prevention of confusion:

    Court documents state that Private Internet Access could only provide information that "the cluster of IP addresses being used was from the east coast of the United States".

    This means that Private Internet Access was unable to provide any information about the customer or their actions due to 
    our no logging policy. If this was not the case, we would be in breach of the Court mandated subpoena and subject to legal action for lying to the court.

    Additional information was provided to the court about the "payment for their services through credit card with a vendor company of Stripe and/or Amazon. They also accept forms of payment online through paypal, bitpay, bit coin, cashyou, ripple, ok pay, and pay garden."
    Post edited by PIAJayson on
  • edited October 13 Posts: 62
    OpenVPN said:

    You wouldn't be giving your money to people whom you call liars so you obviously aren't a real customer. You are obviously just an Internet troll
    Obviously you are also blinded to the lie told in the announcement. Yes, i'm a real customer that paid good money and I have every right to question false statements made by PIA and paid for that right. I give money to charity too, does that also make me an internet troll? Because you don't like me pointing out a lie that the rest just took for granted, including you, i'm an internet troll.

    If its a lie its a lie, it does not matter if someone is a customer or not and the lie is told publicly. There is simply no logic or common sense displayed in what you posted. But I am a customer and have every right to question false statements from PIA. It is not true that it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

     PIAJayson has only deflected and accused falsely of logical fallacies as a means of deflection. The very first thing liars do is try to discredit the person pointing out the lie then they try to substantiate the lie with things that deflect from the question of the lie, this is what PIAJayson did in his post. PIAJayson then claimed this > "By your own definition, you are calling us liars as you believe we are unable to prove what has been said." - I did not give any definition, PIA made the false statement it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

    PIA defined the lie not me. It was yet another in a long string of "tell 'em what they want to hear" statements by PIA. So yes, I believe that PIA is unable to prove that
    it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" and the reason I believe they are unable to prove it is because for a 100% fact the proof does not exist because there is zero proof that it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"


    So, if you, so obviously enamored of PIA, or PIA wants to settle this definitively then present the evidence proof that was presented in US court which shows
    that it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"  and not just something that PIA says. Proof is what actually is and can be tangibly shown, not what someone says it is. That's what PIA has been doing - saying they don't but they have never, not once, presented any proof then they make this announcement statement which is false. Yes, its a lie.

    There is no proof, the statement is a lie. Its impossible for it to have been "proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" because the case was not about PIA and PIA never presented any evidence proof to the court that "Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will". No, it has not "been proven in US court" There was not and has never been any "proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

     So yes PIAJayson, PIA lied. So to take the guess work out of it for you PIAJayson because obviously you are confused on this point, I am calling PIA a liar on this "proven in U.S. court" announcement lie. Maybe the PIA drum you beat so loudly in an effort to drown out someone pointing out an obvious lie distracted you from this point. Obviously PIA doesn't hire people who are able to read and have common sense.

    Post edited by jbis on
  • Posts: 265
    I think both of you are right in the message you're trying to convey. If you go re-read my message you'll see that the conclusion is pretty clear: there is no way PIA could provide any irrefutable proof that we don't log. The best we can do to support the claim that we don't log is just put all the evidence we have, the court documents being the strongest there are at the moment which is what Jayson is trying to explain as it shows that either we really don't have any logs to hand in upon court requests, or that we're deep enough in the lie to lie even in court. The latter doesn't make much sense, so I think the court argument is fairly reasonable and at the very least proves that we're ready to fight it in court to not hand in our customer's information.

    But yes, if you really want to be really pedantic it really only proves that at that time we couldn't provide anything about that specific customer. I still wouldn't call it a lie, because there is no proof anywhere of us logging anything (and you won't find any because we don't). It is absolutely true that there are court documents showing we couldn't provide any information that's not already public, and it seems quite reasonable to me to use that as a proof that we're at least trying.
  • edited October 13 Posts: 62
    Max-P said:
    I think both of you are right in the message you're trying to convey. If you go re-read my message you'll see that the conclusion is pretty clear: there is no way PIA could provide any irrefutable proof that we don't log. The best we can do to support the claim that we don't log is just put all the evidence we have, the court documents being the strongest there are at the moment which is what Jayson is trying to explain as it shows that either we really don't have any logs to hand in upon court requests, or that we're deep enough in the lie to lie even in court. The latter doesn't make much sense, so I think the court argument is fairly reasonable and at the very least proves that we're ready to fight it in court to not hand in our customer's information.

    But yes, if you really want to be really pedantic it really only proves that at that time we couldn't provide anything about that specific customer. I still wouldn't call it a lie, because there is no proof anywhere of us logging anything (and you won't find any because we don't). It is absolutely true that there are court documents showing we couldn't provide any information that's not already public, and it seems quite reasonable to me to use that as a proof that we're at least trying.
    "It is absolutely true that there are court documents showing we couldn't provide any information that's not already public, and it seems quite reasonable to me to use that as a proof that we're at least trying" < that is not proof, its just what PIA said.

    In order to be  "proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" there has to be evidence presented to the court of such and there was none and the case was not even about PIA. The statement is a lie. Now your statement > "there is no way PIA could provide any irrefutable proof that we don't log" bears that out as well, so remove the announcement statement lie.

    It doesn't matter what PIAJayson is trying to explain, the announcement statement lie is still posted and still a lie despite anything anyone from PIA could post. There was no "proven in U.S. court" - period, its a lie.
     
    Post edited by jbis on
  • Posts: 223
    jbis said:
    Max-P said:
    I think both of you are right in the message you're trying to convey. If you go re-read my message you'll see that the conclusion is pretty clear: there is no way PIA could provide any irrefutable proof that we don't log. The best we can do to support the claim that we don't log is just put all the evidence we have, the court documents being the strongest there are at the moment which is what Jayson is trying to explain as it shows that either we really don't have any logs to hand in upon court requests, or that we're deep enough in the lie to lie even in court. The latter doesn't make much sense, so I think the court argument is fairly reasonable and at the very least proves that we're ready to fight it in court to not hand in our customer's information.

    But yes, if you really want to be really pedantic it really only proves that at that time we couldn't provide anything about that specific customer. I still wouldn't call it a lie, because there is no proof anywhere of us logging anything (and you won't find any because we don't). It is absolutely true that there are court documents showing we couldn't provide any information that's not already public, and it seems quite reasonable to me to use that as a proof that we're at least trying.
    "It is absolutely true that there are court documents showing we couldn't provide any information that's not already public, and it seems quite reasonable to me to use that as a proof that we're at least trying" < that is not proof, its just what PIA said.

    In order to be  "proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" there has to be evidence presented to the court of such and there was none and the case was not even about PIA. The statement is a lie. Now your statement > "there is no way PIA could provide any irrefutable proof that we don't log" bears that out as well, so remove the announcement statement lie.

    It doesn't matter what PIAJayson is trying to explain, the announcement statement lie is still posted and still a lie despite anything anyone from PIA could post. There was no "proven in U.S. court" - period, its a lie.
     
    What on Earth are you doing? What exactly are you trying to accomplish by spamming the forum? It doesn't matter how many times they respond to your comments, you will never believe anything they say. That's why you're an Internet troll.

     jbis said:
    OpenVPN said:

    You wouldn't be giving your money to people whom you call liars so you obviously aren't a real customer. You are obviously just an Internet troll
    Obviously you are also blinded to the lie told in the announcement. Yes, i'm a real customer that paid good money and I have every right to question false statements made by PIA and paid for that right. I give money to charity too, does that also make me an internet troll? Because you don't like me pointing out a lie that the rest just took for granted, including you, i'm an internet troll.

    If its a lie its a lie, it does not matter if someone is a customer or not and the lie is told publicly. There is simply no logic or common sense displayed in what you posted. But I am a customer and have every right to question false statements from PIA. It is not true that it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

     PIAJayson has only deflected and accused falsely of logical fallacies as a means of deflection. The very first thing liars do is try to discredit the person pointing out the lie then they try to substantiate the lie with things that deflect from the question of the lie, this is what PIAJayson did in his post. PIAJayson then claimed this > "By your own definition, you are calling us liars as you believe we are unable to prove what has been said." - I did not give any definition, PIA made the false statement it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

    PIA defined the lie not me. It was yet another in a long string of "tell 'em what they want to hear" statements by PIA. So yes, I believe that PIA is unable to prove that
    it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" and the reason I believe they are unable to prove it is because for a 100% fact the proof does not exist because there is zero proof that it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"


    So, if you, so obviously enamored of PIA, or PIA wants to settle this definitively then present the evidence proof that was presented in US court which shows
    that it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"  and not just something that PIA says. Proof is what actually is and can be tangibly shown, not what someone says it is. That's what PIA has been doing - saying they don't but they have never, not once, presented any proof then they make this announcement statement which is false. Yes, its a lie.

    There is no proof, the statement is a lie. Its impossible for it to have been "proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" because the case was not about PIA and PIA never presented any evidence proof to the court that "Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will". No, it has not "been proven in US court" There was not and has never been any "proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

     So yes PIAJayson, PIA lied. So to take the guess work out of it for you PIAJayson because obviously you are confused on this point, I am calling PIA a liar on this "proven in U.S. court" announcement lie. Maybe the PIA drum you beat so loudly in an effort to drown out someone pointing out an obvious lie distracted you from this point. Obviously PIA doesn't hire people who are able to read and have common sense.

    You have absolutely no concrete evidence that they've lied to us about anything. It's your opinion not fact. We don't live in a world of alternative facts.
  • edited October 14 Posts: 62

    OpenVPN said:

    What on Earth are you doing? What exactly are you trying to accomplish by spamming the forum? It doesn't matter how many times they respond to your comments, you will never believe anything they say. That's why you're an Internet troll.
    ....
    You have absolutely no concrete evidence that they've lied to us about anything. It's your opinion not fact. We don't live in a world of alternative facts.

    The proof is in black and white in the announcement post. That is concrete evidence of the lie. If it is not then you post the evidence proof that was presented to the court in a court case about PIA where it was shown in a court rendered verdict substantiating that it has been "proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

    In order to be  "proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" there has to be evidence presented to the court of such and there was none and the case has to be about PIA and it was not. The statement is a lie.

    spamming the forum? I'm a forum member and am posting like you or anyone else is able to do so you must be spamming the forum. I'm not spamming anything. I'm pointing out the lie PIA told, I have every right to do so, and you seem to want to suppress me doing that with your false assumption accusations of me being an internet troll and your seeming to need to jump into a discussion with your opinion of fan boy alternative "I love PIA" revisionist sentiment attacks when the lie is right there in black and white. You let me post my way and you post yours, I can use the forum to my hearts content if I wish and if you don't like it then too bad. Its so important for you to even worry or think about what I post, you must be an internet troll.

    I don't believe liars, if you do then you are a fool. It does not matter what they say, the announcement post is still a lie. So no, I will not believe them on this and will hold them accountable for this lie. I'm tired of the "warm feel good" crap they throw out trying to keep everyone lulled into a state of "oh we need PIA so bad" and the "tell them what they want to here" thing they have done so often and the "thanks for helping us fight the good fight" crap trying to keep customers by keeping paranoia alive and then trying to shine us on with poor tech support and deflecting answers that don't even address the question.

    Other companies can substantiate their claims for their products, PIA is a company and has a legal obligation and requirement to substantiate every claim they make just like any other company. So I expect them to substantiate this claim
    that it has been "proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" with actual tangible proof and not just words just like any other company in the U.S. is required to do. So far, nothing they have posted substantiates that claim and its just more words, its a lie.
    Post edited by jbis on
  • Posts: 62
    PIAJayson said:
    jbis said:
    Logic fallacies?

    Even you do not see the difference in what you are saying. Talk about logic fallacies.

    It does not matter that PIA withdrew from Russia. It does not matter that PIA had full page spreads. It does not matter that PIA donates to whoever. It does not matter that PIA may have acted swiftly in the cases of data breach.

    At question is the PIA announcement claiming it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" <

    Because you appear to be blind and not see it and instead deflect from the question, I will say it for you with nice big letters so you can see it > THE QUESTION IS NOT ANY OF THAT STUFF YOU POST NOW ACCUSING "LOGIC FALLACIES" AND ALL THE OTHER STUFF YOU ARE USING TO AVOID AND DEFLECT FROM THE QUESTION. IF PIA CLAIMS it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY ZERO PROOF OF SUCH IN ANY U.S. COURT (OR ANY COURT IN THE WORLD FOR THAT MATTER) THEN THE CLAIM BY PIA THAT it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" IS NOT TRUE, PERIOD, so yes its a lie. Your post now with its baseless and false accusation and unrelated to the question stuff is only another attempt to deflect from and support what is a lie from PIA and that lie is in plain black and white for the whole world to see right here > https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/forum/discussion/25521/private-internet-access-does-not-log.


    You seem to think that proof is what PIA say's, that is not proof. Proof is what actually is and not what PIA say's it is. PIA claims it has been "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will", that is 100% a false statement because it was not "proven in US court" and never has been - so yes its a lie.

    Talk about logic fallacies - your very post is the poster child example of logic fallacies. Your own arrogance and zeal to neat the PIA drum loudly to down out others has blinded you to the simple fact that the PIA announcement statement
    it has "been proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" is not true and thus a lie.



    Okay, I'll rephrase for the sake of clarity, transparency and the prevention of confusion:

    Court documents state that Private Internet Access could only provide information that "the cluster of IP addresses being used was from the east coast of the United States".

    This means that Private Internet Access was unable to provide any information about the customer or their actions due to 
    our no logging policy. If this was not the case, we would be in breach of the Court mandated subpoena and subject to legal action for lying to the court.

    Additional information was provided to the court about the "payment for their services through credit card with a vendor company of Stripe and/or Amazon. They also accept forms of payment online through paypal, bitpay, bit coin, cashyou, ripple, ok pay, and pay garden."
    also for the sake of clarity, it has not been "proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

    and your post now substantiates that it has not been "proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" < because all PIA submitted was a response to a subponea but not proof evidence to the court that "Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will"

    What you post now is still not proof that it has been "proven in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" > to substantiate that claim we would need to see the evidence proof that PIA submitted to the court to prove that "Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will" because the announcement statement clearly says it has been "proven in US court" which so far is a lie.




  • edited October 14 Posts: 223
    Thank you PIA customer support for the very detailed responses.
    Post edited by OpenVPN on
  • edited October 14 Posts: 223
    @jbis, You sound like a right-wing conservative with your talk of "free speech suppression" haha.....the fact that you're getting so defensive only validates my point. (I have every right to do so, and you seem to want to suppress me doing that with your false assumption accusations of me being an internet troll and your seeming to need to jump into a discussion with your opinion of fan boy alternative "I love PIA" revisionist sentiment attacks when the lie is right there in black and white. You let me post my way and you post yours, I can use the forum to my hearts content if I wish and if you don't like it then too bad. Its so important for you to even worry or think about what I post, you must be an internet troll.)  Your responses keep getting more and more aggressive and I'm also curious as to why you feel the need to type everything in bold print. This isn't a political forum no one is trying to suppress your freedom of speech, calm down.

    For some reason you don't seem very open to the fact that I have my own opinions as well. Instead of excepting those opinions and going about your merry way, you're attacking me and you've been doing so ever since I first commented on this post. In case you weren't aware typing in all caps is a sign of yelling. You have the right to talk about whatever you want on this forum but I assumed we were all adults and therefore could have an adult conversation without getting upset but I was wrong because you apparently seem to be getting more irate the further we get into this conversation. Insults are not necessary "I don't believe liars, if you do then you are a fool."

    You also seem to be very frustrated with the Support Staff although I don't understand why because they've answered all of your inquiries to the best of their abilities but instead of saying "thank you" and moving on with your life. you respond with statements like these "I will say it for you with nice big letters so you can see it."  Very rude and condescending to People who are trying to help you.

    If you think Private Internet Access is a company full of "liars" then I don't understand why you don't just cancel your subscription. That's why I'm confused. Thank you so much for this very engaging conversation but I've grown rather tired of posting on this thread because it seems as if dissenting opinions are not welcome on one of your comments. 

    The quotes in red are statements that you have made.

    Have a great night!
    Post edited by OpenVPN on
  • edited October 14 Posts: 4
    ;Max-P Thanks for your thoughtful and no-bs response, its frank posts like the last one you made in this thread, that assures the customers to a reasonable degree that PIA is definitely not like HMA or so many other VPN service providers that say one thing and do another.

    I think the crucial point that i am taking away from this, is that while there may necessarily be a logging system to flag more than 5 connections from 1 account, those logs ARENT KEPT. So, when PIA says we dont KEEP logs, i think they mean while logging per se is happening while the customers are in session, they are PERHAPS stored in RAM and arent compiled and stored permanently. So yes there are temporary logs of connection data during the connection, but they DONT permanently store them. That sounds completely reasonable to me.

    As far as TRUST goes, well to each his own.
    I will say though, that IF you are the type of PIA user who can understand what it means when Max-P says and i quote "tapping directly into the hardware and MitM the RAM"..if you understand what he is referring to, then you should also know how to mitigate this (hypothetical) threat model. Basically, you should know how to use PIA as a single hop in a multihop VPN chain. You should be familiar with whonix and/or kali linux and you should be familiar and know how to use proxy-chains and other tools in a multilayer/multihop approach so that there is no single point of failure that exposes you.
    You can just read up more on opsec on the security section of stackexchange.com, its all available for free. Plenty of ideas there, like setting up a vpn at your router, another vpn on the host and then running a VPN in Vmware or Virtualbox. Pay for them all with tumbled bitcoins etc etc. Bam, you now have a 3 hop or more encrypted connection to tunnel your traffic through. Some VPN providers themselves have inbuilt multi-hop capabilities like NordVPN and others, so go nuts!

    i appreciate PIAJayson and Max-P for jumping in and posting, thanks guys. i am a happy customer.
    Post edited by PIAcustomer217 on
  • Posts: 293
    jeez @jbis, get a life buddy. OK, so PIA and everybody else are liars - we get it. Take a few valiums are chill!

    If you don't like "lying" PIA then find another provider (I hear Pure will loook after you, *LOL*).
  • edited October 14 Posts: 62
    OpenVPN said:
    @jbis, You sound like a right-wing conservative with your talk of "free speech suppression" haha.....the fact that you're getting so defensive only validates my point. (I have every right to do so, and you seem to want to suppress me doing that with your false assumption accusations of me being an internet troll and your seeming to need to jump into a discussion with your opinion of fan boy alternative "I love PIA" revisionist sentiment attacks when the lie is right there in black and white. You let me post my way and you post yours, I can use the forum to my hearts content if I wish and if you don't like it then too bad. Its so important for you to even worry or think about what I post, you must be an internet troll.)  Your responses keep getting more and more aggressive and I'm also curious as to why you feel the need to type everything in bold print. This isn't a political forum no one is trying to suppress your freedom of speech, calm down.

    For some reason you don't seem very open to the fact that I have my own opinions as well. Instead of excepting those opinions and going about your merry way, you're attacking me and you've been doing so ever since I first commented on this post. In case you weren't aware typing in all caps is a sign of yelling. You have the right to talk about whatever you want on this forum but I assumed we were all adults and therefore could have an adult conversation without getting upset but I was wrong because you apparently seem to be getting more irate the further we get into this conversation. Insults are not necessary "I don't believe liars, if you do then you are a fool."

    You also seem to be very frustrated with the Support Staff although I don't understand why because they've answered all of your inquiries to the best of their abilities but instead of saying "thank you" and moving on with your life. you respond with statements like these "I will say it for you with nice big letters so you can see it."  Very rude and condescending to People who are trying to help you.

    If you think Private Internet Access is a company full of "liars" then I don't understand why you don't just cancel your subscription. That's why I'm confused. Thank you so much for this very engaging conversation but I've grown rather tired of posting on this thread because it seems as if dissenting opinions are not welcome on one of your comments. 

    The quotes in red are statements that you have made.

    Have a great night!
    I never talked of "free speech expression", i talked of what I was doing and what I want to do, and what I will do. That's not talking of "free speech expression", its simply statements of fact. I never thought anyone was trying to suppress my "freedom of speech", I talked of you trying to suppress my pointing out a lie by trying to discredit. Pointing out a lie is not turning the forum into a "political forum". You obviously can not separate fact from your imagined fiction and the fiction that PIA has perpetrated here in the form of a lie in the announcement post.

    attacked you? Like your all innocent and everything - lets go back and review shall we:
    OpenVPN said:

    You wouldn't be giving your money to people whom you call liars so you obviously aren't a real customer. You are obviously just an Internet troll
    lets see, in this stupid and ignorant post of yours you falsely claimed that I "obviously" wasn't a real customer. Then you falsely claimed I was "obviously" an "internet troll".  "obviously" ? really? Where in what I posted was such factually "obvious"? Is English not your first language? If it were your first language you would not have used "obviously" in a factual manner context like you did. Despite the ignorant and intentionally insulting tone in trying to discredit me which is the same thing liars do too, and the false accusation along with your false logic, you pointing out one other thing - you had no intent to have an "adult conversation" and only wanted to play, once again, the PIA fan boy and swallow everything they said hook-line-and sinker and defend it even though its obviously a lie. What is obvious is that you can't separate fact from fiction which is why you would make a good poster child defining confirmation bias.

    Why are you trolling for more posts replies? If there is anyone here who is "obviously" an "internet troll" its you.

    Judging from your reply, you are satisfied with someone lying to you. So when I said "I don't believe liars, if you do then you are a fool." it was not an insult, it was just another statement of fact.

    The announcement statement as written now is a lie. Had it read > "In light of recent news, we would like our clients to rest assured that, as
    presented in US court, Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will. Thank you for helping us fight the good fight."

    > "as presented in US court" > would have been truthful, accurate, conveyed the same message, and matched the "sentiment" Max-P and PIAJayson conveyed.

    I could have lived with that and not said a word about it, but "proven in US court" is a lie. If there was no evidence proof that "Private Internet Access does not store any type of logs and never will." which was provided in US court and the case was not about PIA then its impossible for it to have been "proven in US court" < there was no evidence proof provided in US court and the case was not about PIA, thus no court verdict or decision substantiating it to have been "proven" thus it has not been "proven in US court"

    Post edited by jbis on
  • edited October 14 Posts: 62
    PiaVipper said:
    jeez @jbis, get a life buddy. OK, so PIA and everybody else are liars - we get it. Take a few valiums are chill!

    If you don't like "lying" PIA then find another provider (I hear Pure will loook after you, *LOL*).
    why don't you go back to kissing PIA's ass some more, they love it when people kiss up to them and blindly accept everything they say, PIA loves their fan boys. That seems to be what you spent your money on.

    PureVPN had people just like you. Every time someone brought up something that was not correct or seemed to not be true about logging and pointed it out the PureVPN fan boys would jump in to try to discredit them and shout them down and PureVPN support would try to discredit them and explain it away and defend it just like support has done here.

    People like you are the very reason the people with PureVPN got screwed on the logging issue, they made it look as if there was no issue and if they accepted the PureVPN company line then others should too. So PureVPN never got called to task for proof and the lie continued and PureVPN kept on logging. Only the weak minded, cowards, the stupid or ignorant don't question a lie and try to defend it and blindly accept it like you have done. PureVPN said the same thing (overall) about logging that PIA says (overall) - today we see what happened with PureVPN.

    So if me pointing out a lie told by PIA upsets you or PIA support, then good, because it means i'm on target with pointing out the lie. So once again, as you have done so many times before, pucker up and start smooching that PIA ass.

    Maybe one day PIA might pat you on the head and say "good boy", that seems to be the validation you are seeking. 


    Post edited by jbis on
This discussion has been closed.